There’s no way I can NOT talk about this.
You guys. Today I totally had a light-hearted post about leggings as pants planned, but then last night, I heard some news. From Utah. And now we’re going to get serious.
Or, well, I’m just going to tell you about this and probably get all stabby and teary-eyed and you’ll sit at your computer screens in awe of how pretty I can be while crying and then we’ll all go have coffee and talk about the douchebag Republicans that run the state of Utah. Deal?
On February 18, the Salt Lake City Tribune reported that the Utah Senate had joined the Utah House of Representatives in support of a law that would allow for criminal charges to be brought against an expectant mother who arranges for an illegal abortion.
Now, federally, abortion is legal, but I assume here that each state gets to define the term “abortion,” and decide for itself what the legal issues that surround said abortion are. In Utah, an abortion is legal:
Before 20 weeks, abortion is necessary to save mother’s life or health, if woman was raped or incest committed, or child has grave defects; after 20 weeks, necessary to preserve health, life of mother or if child would be born with grave defects
Any other kind of abortion is illegal. This law, passed now by the Utah Senate and House of Representatives, will extend criminal charges to women who have miscarriages.
It doesn’t address legal abortion, but allows punishment up to life in prison for an “intentional, knowing, or reckless act” that leads to a miscarriage or abortion without a doctor’s supervision.
They’re doing this, supposedly, because a woman in October was being held and facing criminal charges because she paid a man $150 to beat her, in an effort to try to abort her baby. Clearly, that is not on the “legal abortion” list. At that time, she was released, because there was no law criminalizing her actions. Her pregnancy did not terminate.
But she had to take such extreme measures because of the restrictive nature of what constitutes a legal abortion in the state of Utah.
If the governor signs this new law, it is feared that women could and will be prosecuted for any negligent behavior that causes a miscarriage. A glass of wine, improper diet, failure to wear a seat belt in an auto accident, or slipping and falling down the stairs. And if you’ll notice, it says up there that a woman can be charged with UP TO LIFE IN PRISON for such a careless mistake.
Even more to the point, how is Utah possibly going to police this law? Jezebel.com writer Anna N. listed a quote from Dan Savage with a possible solution. A pregnancy registry. I won’t even go into the logistics of trying to force all women who become pregnant to go sign in to a registry, so that the government has an easier time prosecute them later for possible negligent behavior.
Rachel Larris, of Reality Check, writes:
Using the legal standard of “reckless behavior” all a district attorney needs to show is that a woman behaved in a manner that is thought to cause miscarriage, even if she didn’t intend to lose the pregnancy. Drink too much alcohol and have a miscarriage? Under the new law such actions could be cause for prosecution.
I’m just amazed that ANYONE, but particularly any woman, can find this new law palatable. Some people believe that birth control pills already overstep the bounds into MURDER because they prevent (if ovulation manages to happen) the egg from implanting into the uterine wall. But what has most people so concerned about this law is that it is aimed specifically at pregnant women. Most other laws about such matter to date, have been aimed at a third-party. This makes women the criminals.
This is an issue that is very close to my heart. As a woman who has had a miscarriage and who has had an abortion, I can tell you this: Neither is easy. I don’t want children anyway, but accidents happen. Life happens. I had an abortion because I chose me over a ball of cells in my uterus. My miscarriage was caused by several things. Not realizing I was pregnant and therefore continuing to take my birth control pills for a month or longer. Not eating, because I had just gone through the most painful heartbreak of my life. And contracting the flu, because things weren’t bad enough already. If the governor signs this law in Utah, it would be possible to prosecute me for those actions. I was negligent and reckless with an unborn fetus. And in Utah, a mass of cells in a woman’s uterus is more important than the woman carrying it.
Is that really okay with you?
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about 6 months ago
Thank you for posting about this! This is SOOOOOOOOOOO not right. It’s a scary step backwards. I hope that this is invalidated by a court somewhere as it should be.
Kim´s last blog ..Grant Me Impatience
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:18 am
Well, I mean…it’s UTAH.
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about 6 months ago
*slow clap*
This is so nauseatingly unbelievable to me I don’t even know how to respond…I just…how it is anyone’s business but your own what you do with your body at that point in a pregnancy is beyond me. Whether your “negligent” actions are intended or not, IT’S YOUR BODY. Disgusting.
Mary´s last blog ..Go to Hell, Universe
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:18 am
Truly.
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about 6 months ago
Thanks for bringing this to people’s attention. it is sickening and shameful.
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:18 am
I have a feeling I’m going to regret writing about it by the end of the day.
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Michelle Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:27 am
NEVER regret bringing something like this to light…the backlash may be harsh, the outcome may not immediately change, but lending your voice and putting it out there makes it something that people can (and hopefully will) ponder and work towards changing.
It’s not an easy fight, but it’s a fight that must be done, by as many people who are willing to stand up and do it.
I personally thank you for having the gumption to post it and allow others to learn from it, comment on it, and in the end, learn from each other. Kudos to you!
Michelle´s last blog ..Act Like A Prententious Fake & Snag A Man…coming to a country near you!
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:35 am
Oh, I would certainly never regret it for those reasons. People can come at me with whatever they’d like. I’ve made the choices I’ve made and I’m not ashamed of them.
about 6 months ago
This is absolutely insane.
I am not pro-abortion. I think it is, in many cases, wrong. But in a lot of situations, it is a wrong that has to be carried out to prevent even greater wrongs. This law could lead to wrongs many orders of magnitude greater than an abortion. E.g., ruining an adult woman’s life for being forced into a bad situation by other stupid laws.
I don’t know how shit like this can even get past the first person reading it.
Phronk´s last blog ..First Person Plural
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:56 am
Seriously, NO ONE is PRO-abortion. It’s called PRO-CHOICE. Ahem. That shit gets me every time.
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Lexa Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:04 am
Thank you. I don’t think ANYONE is pro abortion.
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Possibly my douchebag ex-boyfriend, but that’s about it.
The Civilian Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 11:19 am
If no one is pro-abortion, then why were so many of the “pro-choice” people freaking out about the pro-life superbowl ad. They were presenting the life side of the choice, and the pro-choice people freaked out about it. Why?
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
I’m not sure how being upset that advertising in the Super Bowl was going to have a completely biased agenda makes a person pro-abortion. I’ve never gone out and pushed abortion on anyone. I don’t even sing its praises. It’s about CHOICES. Hence why we call it “pro-choice.”
Also, I thought the uproar about what was essentially a nothing commercial was over-the-top. Especially considering no one had even seen the thing.
LiLu Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
IMHO? People aren’t pro-life. They’re anti-choice.
LiLu´s last blog ..TMI Thursday: Never Try to Fool a Gay Man
shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
I can get on board with that.
Michelle Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:25 am
Next time you consider using the term “pro-abortion” contemplate this quote: “No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg.”
It’s one I tell many, many women who think that pro-abortion is interchangeable with pro-choice, which then leads to bills and laws and killings because people buy into those words so literally.
Michelle´s last blog ..Act Like A Prententious Fake & Snag A Man…coming to a country near you!
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:32 am
It’s a VERY important distinction. VERY.
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Phronk Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
I agree! With everyone here.
I think where I differ from a lot of people though—and this isn’t a fully formed opinion and I’m not a woman (disclaimer disclaimer)—is that I don’t think the argument “it’s my body and I can do what I want with it” holds water.
No. At some point that clump of cells ceases to become a woman’s body, and becomes another person. It’s a fuzzy boundary, but we can’t just conveniently and arbitrarily say it happens at birth.
For me, being pro-choice means being for making that very tough choice to, in some cases, end a life for a greater good. And that’s why I make the distinction of not being “pro-abortion,” though maybe it’s not the best way to put it. Really, in complex and loaded topics like this, no single term is gonna be good enough.
Phronk´s last blog ..First Person Plural
about 6 months ago
I have mixed feelings about this… Plus you know how much I love to stir the pot.
The woman who paid a man to beat her into miscarriage is disgusting and deserves to be prosecuted. Period. She had the options (travel for a legal abortion in a neighboring state- woman did this for years). This says nothing about whether or not she was on birth control, so who knows how much she cared. I’d be curious to know further information about her.
You know, there are certain states I won’t live in period; Utah being one of them. Sure I’d love to visit, perhaps go skiing, but I don’t want to live there. I value the freedom’s afforded to me in my home state of Texas (god bless guns and legal abortions just to name a few). If they were ever outlawed I WOULD MOVE. Seriously. There are certain things I will not abide.
I think it’s also important to think about legal verbiage here. Did you know that the Texas courts just added the word “reckless” to the indecent exposure statute? I always assumed that was included or at least heavily implied, yet previously you could be arrested for nude sunbathing in your backyard (if someone saw and called the cops). It’s crazy to think how long this has been on the books w/o clarification. So, the verbiage used above is meant to cover all their bases and may not even be what is officially passed. I think as far as your question about being criminally charged for your miscarriage, this would go the same way sodomy and statutory rape cases go- someone would have to tell. It’s kinda gross though.
That being said, Ladies: write your congressman and tell them this is not okay. Support them to not follow suit in the Utah case and keep you body your own. Basically, I support the law to prosecute anyone who tries to cause their own abortion/miscarriage (especially those that involve others in their plot), but I think the verbiage needs to be rethought so as not to prosecute innocent women as well. Utah women should fight to change the original law and push Utah to abide by the federal mandate of legal abortion. I fear this issue will only get worse.
Graygrrrl´s last blog .."The Crazies" A Review
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:16 am
I don’t agree with the woman who paid someone $150 to beat her to try to cause an abortion, but if there was no fetus involved and she paid someone to beat her, you’d think she was a weird, but I doubt you’d be suggesting she be prosecuted. It’s dangerous ground you’re treading on. Plus, it didn’t even work. And maybe $150 was all she had. It’s not like an abortion is free and she couldn’t get one in the state of Utah. I think we need to be careful when we say that criminal action should be taken. Just because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t make it criminal. Laws like this make things even more difficult if you’re poor.
I totally agree that it’s going to be nearly impossible to police this sort of thing, which is why I said as much in the post. I fear that unwed mothers will be targeted. And poor women. The implications of these sorts of laws are felt far further than we can anticipate.
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carissajade Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
In no way whatsoever do I agree with the woman who paid someone to beat her, but when I really started thinking about it (not knowing any of the details or her position,) I’m not sure she should be criminally charged.
We’re talking about a group of conservative people who not only disagree with having pre-marital sex and having children out of wedlock, but also people who probably do not educate their children much about any choices that they may have. Say this is an un-married 16 year old “woman,” who fears that she will be put out on the streets and banished to hell if her parent’s find out her situation… I dunno… it is a fine line.
It also really reminds me of this book I read — “The Rapture of Canaan,” which isn’t about abortion at all, but it is about a girl who gets pregnant while living in an extremely repressed religious community. Crazy stuff, but a great read.
Anyway, I really loved this post and I want to thank you for being so brave and sharing your position on this!
carissajade´s last blog ..I’m not who I thought I was.
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Yeah. It’s messed up to pay someone to beat you to try to terminate a pregnancy. But is it criminal? I just don’t know…maybe it depends on the stage of the pregnancy. Probably it does.
Graygrrrl Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:08 am
I’m going to go on a limb here and say if you pay someone to beat you up, regardless of if you are pregnant or not, you need to be psychologically evaluated. That is weird. I’m all for fetishes and a little slap and tickle, but beating up a pregant lady is incorrect, sir.
I just wish I knew more about this woman’s situation. Is she a young woman? Older? Did she have access to contraception? Is she a wack-a-doo? I want to know more!
Once again, reason I don’t live in Utah.
Graygrrrl´s last blog .."The Crazies" A Review
shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:35 am
I don’t know the answers to your questions.
And I’m not suggesting it’s right or normal. Just that it’s maybe NOT criminal.
about 6 months ago
I just…have no words. I’m ashamed to have been born in Utah, even though I only lived there for 4 months. This is so shamful and so horribly wrong, and it sets a precedent for right to privacy and right to making your own decisions about your body that I can’t even fathom. What about when you get cancer, and the doctor says that there’s a small chance that it could be cured with chemo, but you decide that you want to die at home without drugs, can you be put in jail for negligent behavior? People need to get some common sense.
Rachel´s last blog ..One or the Other
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Agreed. I’m not even sure our Right to Privacy exists any more.
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about 6 months ago
This is retarded and ultimately doomed for failure, even if it does bask in the light of day for a few equally retarded years. Until then, I guess I’ve got another reason to hit up Mexico besides cheap dental work and prescription pain meds.
Jay´s last blog ..After 20 I’m More Like my Grandma (Dead)
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:54 am
I can totally get on board with just living on a beach in Mexico. Immediately.
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about 6 months ago
Do you ever feel like we’re going backwards? My parents told me the other day that a teacher was prosecuted for teaching evolution. Scopes trial, anyone? This is RIDICULOUS. I think the woman who paid a guy to beat her is dumb as shit, and probably should be given an abortion for free now, but I don’t think that’s criminal.
Dear Utah, I’m glad I don’t live in you. Stay out of my womb. MINE. NOT YOURS. Get out.
Just A Girl´s last blog ..So this just happened.
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
“Dear Utah, I’m glad I don’t live in you” just sounds dirty to me. But then again, most everything does.
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Late-Night Drama Queen Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:32 am
Ha, it sounded dirty to me too, Shine.
PS ROCK ON with this post. I love your face.
Late-Night Drama Queen´s last blog ..Something always brings me back to you…
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Thanks, lady bug.
about 6 months ago
Well it is Utah, I mean you can’t drink on Sundays there so I don’t find this to be surprising. I do find it wrong.
Personally I am pro choice. I believe it is the woman’s choice to do with her body what she thinks is right for her. Now that doesn’t mean I don’t think there is a gray area when it comes to abortion. For instance I don’t think having abortions as a form of birth control is ok, I mean that as a repeated form of birth control. You are right accidents happen but most people learn from that. I had a friend who had so many abortions because she didn’t want to use birth control. To me that is never ok. But then it is hard to remember that was her “choice”
Thank you for sharing this. I am sure it wasn’t easy for you to, but that fact that you did I think it helps women feel better about the choices they have made. Well I do at least.
lbluca77´s last blog ..The time I make fun of Canada (a little) but then they redeem themselves
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
I really do think that the girl who uses abortions as birth control is rare. And I don’t think that anyone thinks that’s okay or acceptable.
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about 6 months ago
I don’t think it is a “republican” or “democrat” issue. It’s religion, and yea, a lot of religious people are republicans, but I don’t like blaming one side of the political sector. They both fail at what they do. Blaming one party is something that irks me more than almost anything else in politics.
Anyway, the woman who paid someone to beat her should get a complimentary abortion because obviously she’s fucking retarded.
And this won’t last. I can’t see it possibly lasting. There is no freaking way. If any women in Utah have more brains than uterus, they will take a stand, use their voices and will not let this happen. Plus, I don’t even understand how abortion is even an ISSUE anymore. Roe vs. Wade? Helloooo…. I get that the whole case is floppy and allows room for personal beliefs and what not, but god damn. Give it a rest, retards.
If you don’t like abortion because your religion is against it, don’t get one. But leave everyone else alone and don’t dictate what they have the right to do.
My dad always says “your rights end where my rights begin.” I guess it could be relevant in this case, as someone who has the right to protest abortion can do it, but not to the point where it affects my rights as a citizen to do something I want/need to do. If you protesting affects my right to get an abortion, you need to shut the fuck up.
Also, sure adoption is an option, but do we really need more parentless, unloved children sitting in foster homes waiting for someone to claim them? No.
Alright that’s all. This is all over the place and probably makes no sense, but that’s my opinion and I’m sticking with it. Fuck off, Utah.
gingermandy´s last blog ..Lulu’s You Be The Blogger Contest
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
I do think it’s a political issue. Roe V. Wade was a right to privacy case, and not specifically about abortion. But I’m pretty sure our right to privacy went out the window somewhere in the last decade. If we even really had any privacy in the first place.
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Graygrrrl Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Privacy is certainly an illusion in this day and age. I love this statement, “your rights end where my rights begin”. Can I get that on a t-shirt??
Graygrrrl´s last blog .."The Crazies" A Review
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:35 am
Probably! If not, you can make one yourself.
about 6 months ago
Ah, here we are, the gross overreaction and misinterpretation of a bill that was intended to protect the health of women and unborn children. Despite what you may think there is a point when the “ball of cells” inside your womb becomes something more. I don’t know what point that is.
This bill is not and was not intended to be a way to attack women who have miscarriages or in any other way accidentally lose their unborn child.
Take a step back, go read a bill or law that you agree with, and you will find that the language in the bill/law is necessarily nonspecific. Read the 9th and 10th amendment to the Constitution, they are very nonspecific for a reason. If you start specifying everything then everything you don’t specify to be illegal becomes legal.
The intent of the bill is to stop the “back alley” abortions. You’d be surprised how many there are. Utah is a society where sex before marriage is bad, plain and simple. There are families and even communities that would disown their children if they found out they had sex before marriage. That pressures the young ladies who do have sex and accidentally get pregnant to go do something drastic in order to avoid letting their parents know. Maybe you understand this kind of pressure, maybe you don’t.
I don’t think this bill is the best way of going about preventing these abortions. They’re trying to fix a problem by addressing the symptoms, but not treating the underlying cause.
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Oh, I agree that it becomes something more at some point. I’m just not sure where I’d draw the line.
And I do think that this law is aimed at punishing women and is generally going to punish poor women more than women who have better resources. It’s a dangerous game to play.
I also think it’s not the solution to what they perceive as the problem.
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about 6 months ago
“The intent of the bill is to stop the “back alley” abortions. You’d be surprised how many there are.”
Not really. Because the reason there are so many is the ludicrous regulations states have imposed. Back-alley abortions wouldn’t occur if clinical, supervised, medical abortions weren’t restricted.
The “underlying cause” is a religious, misogynistic culture, where “sex before marriage is bad, plain and simple” and “families and communities would disown their children if they found out they had sex before marriage.” The fundamental problem is, in actuality, fundamentalism.
“I don’t think it is a “republican” or “democrat” issue. It’s religion, and yea, a lot of religious people are republicans, but I don’t like blaming one side of the political sector.”
It is. The GOP runs on a conservative platform based on “traditional” family values and mostly Biblical religious belief (nevermind that the founding fathers were more interested in deism than religion, the amount of slaves they kept as mistresses, and their belief in liberty/choice).
It goes back to the underlying cause already mentioned, which is, in places, a social trend toward less education, reason, and science and more religion and ignorance. The majority of the states in which problems like this occur are the ones where boards of education seek to teach “Intelligent Design” alongside evolution and decry the so-called “liberal elite.” The places that create a division between “Main street” and “Wall street,” you betcha.
Will Entrekin´s last blog ..What Writers Can Learn from Superbowl Ads
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Haha. You betcha!
And I agree.
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Just A Girl Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Dear Will, I love your face.
Just A Girl´s last blog ..So this just happened.
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about 6 months ago
I’m late to the party, so I’ll sum up my thoughts here:
-Oh, Utah, you’re like the retarded, backwoods, hillbilly cousin we pretend we don’t have.
-No woman is EVER pro-abortion. Ever. It’s pro-choice. Always.
-This post is both magnificent and brave. Kudos to you for doing this.
-To any of the haters who decided to send you nasty e-mails for writing this: Fuck you. She has the right to an opinion. If you don’t like her opinions, fuck off, stop reading, and go start your own blog.
Rebecca´s last blog ..This is why I’m going to go down in Guinness with the most emotionally-draining and absurd week ever
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Natalie Cottrell Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Here here! What is the point of being in a country that allows such dialogue if we all lose our shit the second anyone initiates a (very important and worthy of consideration) discussion?
Natalie Cottrell´s last blog ..I feel pretty…
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
I try really hard not to lose my shit, but…one more pro-abortion and I’m going to toss my cookies. On the person who utters it.
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
It seriously makes me go a little crazy to hear people call it pro-abortion. Way to drink the fucking kool-aid.
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Graygrrrl Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:13 am
I know! I love this idea that there are women out there cheering on abortion. “Go abortion! You’re the best!” COME ON!
PS- shine, please don’t ralph on me!
Graygrrrl´s last blog .."The Crazies" A Review
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:36 am
I won’t. You’d kill me.
about 6 months ago
That so sucks and has to be unconstitutional. But that is no longer a guarantee of overturning it with the supreme court we have now who think a corporation should have citizen’s rights.
Too much church in gov’t in Utah.
If these people believe in Heaven and salvation, why do they want to keep these ‘souls’ from it and make them suffer life on earth?
GregoryJ´s last blog ..Here’s Your Sign Thursday – Spammed again
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Actually, why not just let these poor women have abortions if they want. That’ll send ‘em straight to hell and keep ‘em from crowding up your Heaven, eh?
I’m insensitive.
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Rebecca Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
I just snorted water through my nose at this.
Rebecca´s last blog ..This is why I’m going to go down in Guinness with the most emotionally-draining and absurd week ever
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
You love me. I’m totally going to crowd up your hell.
about 6 months ago
More than anything, I am so afraid of the direction we are headed when legislation such as this is even considered. Thinly veiled and a whole lot of implications for the future. It’s a line in the sand, really, and I don’t like where it’s going. At all. Not every one has the same resources available to them, and by criminalizing the very same people who do such things because of their lack of options, we’re not doing anything more than overwhelming and already saturated justice system. It’s a Band-Aid. A real shitty one, IMO.
Natalie Cottrell´s last blog ..I feel pretty…
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
I love you. That is all.
Band-aid, indeed. Those janky band-aids you get from the clinic that have no sticky.
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about 6 months ago
High fucking five for this post.
More women need to admit they’ve had abortions. It’s nothing to be ashamed of, and maybe if more people knew how many women in their lives have had them, they’d be more sympathetic.
Ells´s last blog ..Getting some restraint
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
I agree. I mean, I don’t think we should suggest that it’s a cool thing to do. IT’S NOT. EMPHATICALLY. Hardest thing I’ve ever done. Hardest choice I’ve ever made. But it doesn’t make you a bad person.
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Ells Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Yeah, other people have made this point, but it’s worth repeating a thousand times: No one likes abortion. No one wants there to be abortions. But so long as there is pregnancy, there will be unwanted pregnancy, and there will be abortions. Legal, illegal, safe, or not.
So, again, THANK YOU!
Ells´s last blog ..Getting some restraint
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about 6 months ago
I’m not sure that’s how this bill reads. I’m almost positive it’s to stop people from throwing themselves down steps and drinking to oblivion.
People aren’t going to be going to jail for life for not knowing they’re pregnant or having a sip of alcohol and getting a miscarriage.
think of it this way. When you have negligent driving, you don’t get the max penalty. You usually get a slap on the wrist. Same with Negligent homicide.
Implementing max penalties and applying them are two totally different things. I’m not sure what that “Reality Check” post was getting at.
Rahul´s last blog ..It’s Better on Ice
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
I just think that the implications of what COULD happen are a little scary. Especially considering the state in question. I also think that laws like this target unwed and poor women who already have few resources available. And if a woman who found out she’s pregnant last week wants to throw herself down the stairs because she can’t afford to travel to another state and pay someone for a safe and legal abortion, who am I to tell you she can’t?
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Rahul Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
Well, I disagree. throwing yourself down steps or drinking alcohol endangers the child you have. Where’s the guarantee that it will definitely cause a miscarriage? You just brought a child into this world with a higher probability of a defect. I’m sorry, I’m pro choice, but I have zero sympathy for someone that got pregnant and is CONSCIOUSLY deciding to end a pregnancy that way.
It’s gross. If the government wants to prosecute those people than go ahead. You can come up with the money. People with far less have had abortions in this country.
Rahul´s last blog ..It’s Better on Ice
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
So it’s okay to consciously go to a doctor and have him suck the fetus out of you, but it’s NOT okay to put your own body in danger if you can’t afford to do that?
Because it IS about money and resources. In Utah, women can’t just walk into a clinic and say, “Hey, sign me up for an abortion, please.” It’s only legal if it’s going to adversely affect the health of the mother to have the babies or if the baby is going to be born with serious birth defects. So a woman would have to have the resources to travel across state lines AND then have the resources to actually have the abortion.
There is no guarantee that those actions will cause a miscarriage, but the way that law is written, that doesn’t even have to be the INTENT. And how are they going to prove intent in a court of law anyway.
I just…yeah, I don’t see the logic in what you’re saying. But we don’t have to agree.
Just A Girl Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
The fact is that they CAN impose max penalties, and in an already conservative state, I guarantee that at some point, someone WILL. They shouldn’t be allowed the option. How is it my fucking business if they throw themselves down the stairs? Guess what, it’s not. And it’s sure as shit not yours either. You can disagree all you want but it’s still Not. Your. Business. And what if a woman slips and falls and they decide that it was intentional? How does she prove that it wasn’t? It’s a ridiculous law and your logic is just about as bad.
Just A Girl´s last blog ..So this just happened.
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Graygrrrl Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:19 am
I gotta go w/Rahul on this one. Throwing yourself down the stairs is never the answer. You have a better chance of killing yourself than your baby.
If the concern is for poor and/or unwed mothers, we need to teach safe sex practices as well as the results of sex to young people. Abstinence is clearly working so well
Graygrrrl´s last blog .."The Crazies" A Review
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Right. The point is that this ISN’T a solution to the problem. AT ALL.
And throwing yourself down the stairs isn’t okay. I don’t support it. But I can’t say I think it’s criminal. THAT is the point.
about 6 months ago
I am so glad you posted this.
Words cannot even express how sick this makes me feel. How can they possibly justify charging a woman as a criminal for having a miscarriage? How do you prove she was negligent? It’s absolutely ridiculous.
I’m honestly nauseous right now.
Jeney´s last blog ..TMI Thursday: One Girl, One Cup (Not like you would think…)
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
I’m right there with you.
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about 6 months ago
i’m sorry, my HEAD JUST EXPLODED. what. the fuck. i can hardly think straight right now. this sort of stuff gets me SO RILED UP. Aaarrrgggh.
calling anyone “pro-abortion” is like calling the nra “pro-homicide.”
i just went with a friend last week to a clinic for an abortion. she has 3 children already, divorced from her ex, and is raising all 3 on her own. she was on birth control at the time. the thought of her having to give up her career to care for a 4th kid (which, let’s face it, DOES HAPPEN, she works in a competitive environment that would not work as a new mom) or, you know, never have sex EVER! AGAIN! because a mass of cells – smaller than a fucking tumor, let’s remember, which is another mass of cells – should have more rights than she.
Alice´s last blog ..flavor trip!
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
EXACTLY!
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about 6 months ago
Everybody already said everything I think, so I’m just going to post-jack here and say:
Can we maybe not say “retarded”? This is my New Year’s Resolution, who’s joining me?
Also, props to Shine for sharing her experiences. That can’t be easy, and honesty is rare in blogging. I mean real honesty.
Antelope´s last blog ..Like a good neighbor…
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Could you please call my mother and tell her that it’s brave and whatnot? Because she almost killed me at dinner tonight for telling the whole WORLD (her words) that I had an abortion. I suggested that maybe if more women talked about their experiences, it wouldn’t be such a taboo subject and women wouldn’t be judged so harshly for doing it. She suggested that it didn’t have to be ME who shared everything.
She clearly doesn’t know me at all…
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about 6 months ago
I’ve always thought that a parasite should never have more rights than its host.
JohnnyV´s last blog ..Winter can blow me.
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Amen.
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LiLu Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Dear JohnnyV:
AWESOME SAUCE.
Love,
LiLu
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about 6 months ago
First, I have no idea how this law exists. Federal law generally preempts state law in contexts like this and if Utah’s got a law specifically prohibiting what federal law allows, I imagine it’ll soon be gone.
But I’ve never really understood the “crime against the embryo” rationale. If they’ve got evidence that she paid a guy to beat her and that he actually did, he should probably be charged with assault and/or battery against her. The pregnancy should be, at most, an aggravating circumstance. It takes a special kind of basic human fail to beat a woman’s embryo out of her. But that fail shouldn’t be an impetus to restrict an entire base of constitutional rights.
I think part of the problem is that we regard pregnancy as a privacy issue. It’s not. Medical privacy is about the sharing of information, not about making an actual decision. For instance, imagine someone’s in a vegetative state but has a valid will that outlines what should happen if she was ever in such a state. How that information is handled is about privacy; it shouldn’t be publicized; it shouldn’t be shared with anyone who isn’t authorized. But her actual decision to have the support end or continue is not about privacy; it’s about autonomy.
A decision about cells in your body is an issue of autonomy. It’s about a right to self, not a right to seclusion. There’s a difference. And I wish we would talk about that more.
brad´s last blog ..shiny, happy people
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shine Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Can’t argue with any of that.
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about 6 months ago
This is so wrong. I wish I could be more eloquent and support you with more words of “High five” and “I agree” but I just… I get wrapped up in all of the thoughts of…
“so we make women have babies they don’t want, can’t afford, could end up being neglected, beaten or placed in foster care for their entire lives, and live lives that are less than what could be because of a law… and then arrest the woman who knew they didn’t have it in them to take care of the child or carry it comfortably in the first place?”
The thing is, the tragedy is not the fact that women have the choice. It’s that we live in a society where we have to make the choice… the fathers can walk away essentially scott free and toss a few dollars through court mandate. How much more responsible is that?
So, because the woman has the uterus, then the woman has to bear the entire responsibility? Why aren’t men prosecuted for not wearing a condom? Why aren’t men prosecuted for spreading STDs? On that same vein why aren’t males being marketed for the HPV vaccine? They can spread it and the cancer risks too! Hello, oral cancer for men… I digress.
I have had a miscarriage, twice. For 12 years we have been trying to have another baby. The last time I had a miscarriage I told my husband that as badly as I wanted another child, it wasn’t the right time for many reasons and while I did nothing to cause the miscarriage, if someone in UTAH had overheard me saying that… they could misconstrue it. And I’ll be goddamned if some man or court of strangers OR ANYONE tells me what to do with my body when we are already in a world suffering from recession, and overpopulation.
UTAH lawmakers need to focus on China, where women are being forced to have abortions and forcibly sterilized, which is just as wrong. Who has a right to tell us what to do with OUR bodies?
The same companies that will pay for Viagra but not the Mirena or birth control or a male birth control pill?
Bama RIley´s last blog ..Bama’s Headline Leftovers- Feb 25,2010
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 8:09 am
I really…really wish I could give you my uterus.
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about 6 months ago
All of the above meaning I totally agree and having reread I got so worked up that my words at first sound like I was disagreeing.
I cannot talk or type well sometimes when things like this come up.
Bama RIley´s last blog ..Bama’s Headline Leftovers- Feb 25,2010
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 8:09 am
Oh, I got it. And I get the same way.
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about 6 months ago
Wow, I can’t believe I’ve actually been rendered speechless by this post. I can’t believe the gall of high-and-mighty political pinheads who try and legislate what a person can do with their own body. Now I am 100% pro-choice, and I know that no woman enters into the decision lightly when having an abortion, and after it is done, they never stop thinking about what could have been either.
That said, for the politicians in Utah to think they can prosecute a woman for something like this, and with a felony no less, pisses me off at minimum, and in actuality I hope there’s a revolt in Utah and these assholes are kicked out of political office as soon as possible.
My only hope is that the governor has more common sense than the other lawmakers in that state, and he quashes the bill. This never should have been brought up in a political context, much less made it this far!
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 8:10 am
I agree. I can’t believe in passed in both houses.
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about 6 months ago
Shit, are you kidding me? This is ridiculous. I was offended by the idea of pregnant women registering. Life sentence? Please tell me that the chances of this bill coming to pass is zero!
Sid Kane´s last blog ..Tale of dipshittery brought to you by Sid Kane
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 8:10 am
I’d like to tell you that, but I fear it will pass. And in Texas, we’re seriously a stone’s throw away from such a law.
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about 6 months ago
I live in AL and I could so see something like this happening here. The thought a Preggo Registry infuriates me. As if having a miscarriage isn’t horrible enough, now the government wants to verify it wasn’t mom’s fault?
On the pro-choice/pro-life Superbowl thing….I think that ad could be considered pro-choice. Mrs. Tebow had a CHOICE, no one forced her to have an abortion, just like no one should force a woman to carry a fetus.
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shine Reply:
February 26th, 2010 at 9:58 am
Honestly, I thought the commercial was…nothing. The problem was that it was funded by Focus on the Family, which is pretty much a guarantee that the pro-choice crowd will get all riled up.
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about 6 months ago
this is so infuriating. how can society be actively taking such huge steps backwards? what is happening to progress? I’m all for states rights – if we left it up to the nation as a whole the states that allow gay marriage probably wouldn’t be able to do so – but giving states the right to decide social issues for themselves also leads to ridiculous throwback-to-the-1950s laws like this one that are crucifying women’s rights. i can only say thank god I live in europe where if I would never have to make the heart-breaking decision to pay someone to beat me in order to miscarry a baby that my state forbid me to abort.
these are the moments that make me completely and utterly ashamed to be american.
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shine Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 12:06 pm
This is why I think it’s so important to have a dialogue about issues like this.
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julia Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:24 pm
I’m glad you’ve started the dialogue. I’ve already forwarded this post to a lot of my friends. I wish that even in the US I could do more, but besides actively supporting groups like planned parenthood its hard for someone like me – from Massachusetts (where it’s less likely for something like this to go down), living abroad – to feel like I’m making a difference. which is part of why news like this is so frustrating to hear, because I feel like I can’t do anything about it.
I propose a new law: No Uterus, No Opinion. Because male-dominated legislatures have been making decisions about women’s reproductive rights for too long.
julia´s last blog ..Coughy Runny Sneezy … Enough!
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shine Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 4:09 pm
I don’t know if I’m willing to alienate men entirely. There are plenty of men out there who are on the side of choices. It’s a complicated issue, and it’s not going to go away.
about 6 months ago
I wish I had read your post earlier! But I completely agree with you. It comes down to conservative bastards trying to take away our rights as women over OUR OWN BODIES.
I wish we could stop this.
Marie´s last blog ..Always Ask Why
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shine Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:54 pm
We can let our voices be heard. I’m honestly not exactly sure what else to do. And since I live in SUCH a conservative, republican state, I worry that we’re but a stone’s throw from a law like this.
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about 6 months ago
I totally agree. But it seems funny that the same political group that is all for pro-choice is against me being able to protect myself if I was the victim of a home invasionrobberyrape. (2nd amendment). When are we going to realize that it’s about being pro-rights. It’s about giving people the maximum amount of freedom. Realizing that people can and should thnk for themselves.
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shine Reply:
March 12th, 2010 at 10:04 am
I don’t actually really know if I think all democrats are so much against guns for everything. I also don’t think guns are the only way to protect yourself. Not that I’m much of a democrat. I don’t know if I really think anyone should be governing what people do in the privacy of their own homes…aside from, ya know, raping small children or whatever.
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about 4 months ago
SCARY backwards utah. oh dear, i had no idea.
Jenny DB´s last blog ..i’ve been busy: part 2
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shine Reply:
May 19th, 2010 at 10:17 am
It definitely scares the crap out of me.
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about 4 months ago
Nice post, thanks for writing!
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shine Reply:
May 19th, 2010 at 10:17 am
No problem.
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